Murderers. Fraudsters. Internet trolls. This is a podcast about people who do terrible things, and the science of humanity’s dark side.Series producer: Louisa Field
Artwork: Kingsley Nebechi
Music: Matt Chandler
Editors: Anna Lacey and Martin Smith
Academic Consultants for The Open University:
Dr Ailsa Strathie
Dr Sarah Laurence
Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland
Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins
Bad People is produced in partnership with The Open University and is a BBC Audio Science Production for BBC Sounds.
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The story of the biggest prison smuggling plot ever busted in the UK - and the love story at the heart of it.Journalist Amber Haque untangles what happens when mental health nurse Amy Hatfield meets convicted criminal Joe Whittingham. Her investigation leads into a world of blackmail and manipulation, where you never quite know who to trust or who's watching.Credits
Host: Amber Haque
Producer: Becca Bryers
Sound design: Ivor Manley and Andy Fell
Story and music consultant: Emma Weatherill
Development by: Rob Byrne, Rhiannon Nevada and Emma Shaw
Production management: Gaelan Davis-Connolly and Debbie Wadell
Executive producer: Joe Kent
Commissioning producer: Sam Proffitt
Commissioning executive: Louise Kattenhorn and Lorraine Okuefuna
Commissioning editor: Richard Maddock
A BBC Studios production for BBC Sounds and BBC Radio 5 Live
125. The Secret History of the Clubcard (00:39:45)
How one of the first Tesco Clubcards was used to pay off a blackmailer threatening to poison frozen food. And how that Clubcard was used to catch him.Presented by journalist and true crime documentary maker Amber Haque and criminal psychologist Dr Julia Shaw.Producer: Ciaran Tracey with help from James Shield
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioner: Izzy Lee-PoultonBad People is a BBC Studios production for BBC Sounds
124. Flashers: The case of Wayne Couzens (00:43:48)
Former Metropolitan Police officer, Wayne Couzens, kidnapped, raped and murdered Sarah Everard, in March, 2021.Hosts Amber Haque and Dr Julia Shaw discuss the findings of The Angiolini Inquiry, and how the crime of indecent exposure may indicate a potential trajectory towards even more serious sexual and violent offending.Producer: Lorna Reader
Executive Producers: Innes Bowen and Joe Kent
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioner: Izzy Lee-PoultonBad People is a BBC Studios production for BBC Sounds.
123. My ex tried to have me killed (00:35:20)
Rob Parkes’ ex-wife lied about him being a drug dealer and a gang member. Then she tried to hire a hitman to have him killed.Rob tells his remarkable story of abuse, narrow escapes and survival.Presented by journalist and true crime documentary maker Amber Haque and criminal psychologist Dr Julia Shaw.Producers: James Shield and Danita McIntyre
Executive Producers: Joe Kent and Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioner: Izzy Lee-PoultonBad People is a BBC Studios production for BBC Sounds
122. Trust Me I'm a Doctor (00:38:40)
Ian Patterson was a sought after breast surgeon and patron of a charity supporting people with cancer, now he’s in prison.He was sentenced to 20 years in 2017 for carrying out unnecessary and unapproved procedures.Hosts Amber Haque and Dr Julia Shaw discuss the psychology of medical encounters and the prevalence of narcissism amongst surgeons.Producer: Rachel Oakes
Executive Producers: Innes Bowen and Joe Kent
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Assistant Commissioners: Izzy Lee-Poulton and Sarah Green
Commissioning Editor: Dylan HaskinsBad People is a BBC Studios production for BBC Sounds.
121. Understanding Violence: Bad People x The Reith Lectures (00:34:33)
Dr Gwen Adshead has spent almost thirty years working with the some of the most violent offenders in prisons and high security psychiatric facilities. Amber Haque and Dr Julia Shaw speak to Dr Gwen Adshead who is delivering this year's BBC Radio 4 Reith Lectures. She tells Bad People that to really understand violence we need to pay more attention to what perpetrators say about it.
120. We need to talk about Ethan (00:43:24)
Should the parents of a high school shooter be held criminally responsible for the actions of their son?The landmark case of James and Jennifer Crumbley, the parents of US high school shooter Ethan Crumbley. They were charged with failing to prevent their son's fatal attack.Presented by journalist and true crime documentary maker Amber Haque and criminal psychologist Dr Julia Shaw.Producer: James Shield
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioner: Izzy Lee-Poulton
119. The Ultimate Foul (00:38:11)
Faye Dunn was a professional footballer who played for the England women's team. In 2020, police discovered she had another career in organised crime.Amber Haque tells the story of how Faye and her father were rumbled in the biggest organised crime bust in British history. Dr Julia Shaw delves into the research on double lives and going into crime with a family member.Producers: Maggie Latham, Lorna Reader and Fiona Woods
Production Apprentice: Danita McIntyre
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioner: Izzy Lee-Poulton
118. Killed by Text (00:42:57)
The story of how teenager Michelle Carter's text messages to suicidal boyfriend Conrad Roy resulted in death for him and a charge of manslaughter for her.Hosts Amber Haque and Dr Julia Shaw discuss whether it should be a crime to encourage someone to take their own life?Producers: Lorna Reader and Rachel Oakes.
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioners: Izzy Lee-Poulton and Sarah Green
117. The Bookkeeper and the Boss (00:43:10)
Sherri Lynn Lamarche was the unassuming bookkeeper in a family real estate business in Nova Scotia. She was trusted so much that she managed to steal millions before anyone noticed.Hosts Amber Haque and Dr Julia Shaw discuss how criminal psychology's model of the "fraud triangle" perfectly fits this ultimate office drama. It's a classic fraud story of opportunity, incentive and rationalisation.Producers: Ciaran Tracey with help from Lorna Reader, Rhiannon Cobb and Shabnam Grewal
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioners: Izzy Lee-Poulton and Sarah Green
116. Bad Momfluencer (00:45:32)
In February 2024, mother-of-six, beloved parenting guru and social media star Ruby Franke, was convicted and jailed for child abuse.The case struck at the heart of what it means to be a good carer in today’s society, and how even the most loving parent can end up committing unimaginable cruelty.Join criminal psychologist, Dr Julia Shaw and true crime documentary maker Amber Haque as they discuss this truly heartbreaking and mind-boggling case – as well as exploring how what and who we choose to follow and interact with on social media can raise serious moral questions too.Producers: Maggie Latham and Rachel Oakes
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioners: Izzy Lee-Poulton and Sarah Green
115. Lost at Sea (00:44:46)
Rebecca Coriam, a 24-year-old from Chester, was working on a cruise ship off the Pacific coast of Mexico when she disappeared in 2011. The story of how the police and the cruise line dealt with her disappearance shines a light on the difficulties of getting a thorough investigation when someone goes missing at sea.Hosts Amber Haque and Dr Julia Shaw discuss this story and find out more about crime on cruise ships.Producers: Maggie Latham and Rachel Oakes
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioners: Izzy Lee-Poulton and Sarah Green
114. Showtrial and the politics of protest (00:34:58)
Showtrial series 2 is a gripping BBC screen drama about climate activism, civil disobedience and police corruption. Screenwriter Ben Richards joins Julia and Amber to talk about the bad things his characters do and why.In this podcast we state incorrectly that the setting for the courtroom drama was London. We should have said the setting was a Brighton courtroom. We apologise.Producer: Lorna Reader
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioners: Izzy Lee-Poulton and Sarah Green
113. It's in our DNA (00:44:29)
Magdalena Cruz did not know who her father was. But she knew he was a rapist. An ancestry DNA test led her to her likely family. When she looked at their profiles on social media she came across the photograph of a man with a striking family resemblance.Journalist Amber Haque and criminal psychologist Dr Julia Shaw delve into the story.Producers: Ciaran Tracey and James Shield
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioners: Izzy Lee-Poulton and Sarah Green
112. Four Boys (00:46:01)
Three boys from the same Sunderland school were found dead within a few months of each other in the early 1990s. Their deaths were initially blamed on sniffing glue to get high. But the boys' families thought they had been murdered. And they were right. Two years later, Steven Grieveson was convicted of serial murder. But the investigation wasn't over.Presenters: Criminal psychologist Dr Julia Shaw and journalist and true crime documentary maker Amber Haque.Producers: Maggie Latham and Rachel Oakes
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioners: Izzy Lee-Poulton and Sarah Green
111. Pretendians (00:40:43)
"Pretendians" are people who falsely claim a native American or indigenous Canadian identity.In 2024, a 59 year old woman who falsely claimed her daughters were adopted Inuit girls was sentenced to three years in a Canadian prison. Karima Manji lied about her daughters' heritage to claim $150,000 from funds reserved for Inuit people. The judge sentenced her to more than the two years recommended by the prosecution, stating that Manji had "victimized the Inuit of Nunavut by stealing their identity."Should crimes involving cultural appropriation attract a heavier sentence?Hosts: Dr Julia Shaw and Amber Haque.Producer: Shabnam Grewal
Assistant Producer: Rachel Oakes
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioners: Izzy Lee-Poulton and Sarah Green
110. Delimar Vera (00:45:10)
Baby girl Delimar Vera is declared dead in a house fire. Years later, the bereaved mother thinks she recognises her at a party. The girl she thinks is her daughter is called Aaliyah. The woman who has brought her up claims to be Aaliyah’s birth mother.Hosts Amber Haque and Dr Julia Shaw discuss the truth about Delimar Vera’s real fate – and how the research on phantom pregnancy and child abduction help us understand what happened and why.Producers: Maggie Latham and Rachel Oakes
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Recording Studio: 88Hertz
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioners: Izzy Lee-Poulton and Sarah Green
109. Out of Character Criminal (00:43:18)
A law abiding businessman turns criminal after medical treatment. Are hormones to blame?Richard Davis was a 42 year old asexual with a highly successful business and no criminal record. Then he experienced a sudden change of personality. He became sex-obsessed - buying pornography and hiring escorts. Within two years of this personality change, he had convictions for assault and dishonesty and was banned from being a company director.Journalist Amber Haque digs into the newspaper and court archives to tell this extraordinary story. Criminal psychologist Dr Julia Shaw explains why, in this case, the defence "My hormones made me do it," might be more than a lame excuse.Producer: Maggie Latham with help from Shabnam Grewal and James Shield
Researcher: Rhiannon Cobb
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Recording Studio: 88Hertz
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioners: Izzy Lee-Poulton and Sarah Green
108. I was Tinder Swindled (00:57:48)
Presenters Dr Julia Shaw and Amber Haque meet the world's most famous victim of romance fraud: Cecilie Fjellhoy. After exposing the so-called Tindler Swindler in a Netflix hit, Cecilie confronted him in person and set up a campaign to help other victims.Cecilie's life changed radically after she swiped right on the Tinder profile of Simon Leviev.He took her on a private jet on their first date, told her he was the son of a billionaire diamond dealer and seemed to live a jet set life. But though he dressed in designer clothes from head to toe, drove expensive cars and had an entourage that included a chauffeur and a bodyguard, the handsome Israeli was actually a convicted fraudster whose real name was Shimon Hayut.Once he knew Cecilie had fallen in love with him, he told her his life was in danger and that he needed to stay alive. He maxed out her credit card immediately and then begged her to get more money. She managed to borrow nearly $200,000 which he promised to pay back but he never did. She ended up bankrupt and depressed while he moved on to defrauding other women.She tells Julia and Amber about life after Netflix - and discusses the psychological tricks that romance fraudsters play.Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Amber Haque
Producer: Shabnam Grewal
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Unit Manager: Lucy Bannister
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Researcher: Rhiannon Cobb
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Recording Studio: 88Hertz
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioners: Izzy Lee-Poulton, Adam Eland and Sarah Green
107. Gatwick Blackmailer (00:54:22)
In TV dramas, criminal profilers solve crimes that the police cannot. Presenters Dr Julia Shaw and Amber Haque look at a real life case.
An anonymous blackmailer threatens acid attacks unless his demands for pornographic photos of female airline staff at Gatwick are met. The police are stumped. So, they call in a professor of criminal psychology. What he says astounds them.
Further information:
Julia refers in this episode to the following study: Analysing criminal profiling validity: Underlying problems and future directions. Rita Alexandra Brilha Ribeiro, Cristina Branca Bento de Matos Soeiro. International Journal of Law and Psychiatry Volume 74, January–February 2021, 101670
Cracker is a 1990s ITV drama series about a fictional criminal profiler. The series was produced by Granada Television, written by Jimmy McGovern and starred Robbie Coltraine. In August 2024, the series was available on ITVX.
Jimmy McGovern appears in this June 2021 episode of Bad People, talking about another one of his crime dramas: Time.
The Real Cracker was a documentary series produced by Oxford Films. It was inspired by the TV drama Cracker. A book based on the series was published in 2002 by Channel 4 Books: The Real Cracker: Investigating the Criminal Mind by Stephen Cook.
Producer: Innes Bowen
Editor: Philip Sellars
Unit Manager: Lucy Bannister
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Researcher: Rhiannon Cobb
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Recording Studio: 88Hertz
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioners: Adam Eland and Sarah Green
106. The Pyjama Killer (00:52:05)
Bad People is back!Criminal psychologist, Dr Julia Shaw, is joined by a new co-host: journalist and documentary maker Amber Haque.The new season starts with a true crime story that went viral during lockdown.Penny Jackson looked as if she was living the middle class retirement dream. Holidays and a retirement home by the sea.But cooped up with her husband during lockdown, her anger got out of control. After a petty row about food she stabbed her husband to death. When police arrested for murder, she said, "Oh good." Video footage of her being taken into custody in her M&S pyjamas went viral.Amber looks into the couple's lives for clues about what led to their fatal row. Julia and Amber discuss coercive control, toxic relationships and complex grief.Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Amber Haque
Producers: Ciaran Tracey and James Shield
Executive Producer: Innes Bowen
Unit Manager: Lucy Bannister
Production Coordinator: Juliette Harvey
Researcher: Rhiannon Cobb
Mix Engineer: John Scott
Recording Studio: 88Hertz
Commissioning Editor: Dylan Haskins
Assistant Commissioners: Adam Eland, Sarah Green and Izzy Lee-Poulton
Bad People is back! (00:03:47)
Bad People is back! Criminal psychologist Dr Julia Shaw makes a return to the series with a new co-host: journalist Amber Haque.
Each episode tells the story of a true crime and explains why people do bad things. Murder, blackmail, fraud and much more.Listen every Thursday.
Bad People is a BBC Studios Audio production for BBC Sounds.
105. Dark Arts 2: Can we prevent campaigns of vilification? (00:42:46)
It’s the Bad People finale. In this last ever episode, Julia and Sofie dig into the ethics of the media covering criminal cases. After a press “campaign of vilification”, all charges against Christopher Jefferies were dismissed. The tabloids had incorrectly painted him as Joanna Yeates’ killer. Mr Jefferies took the newspapers responsible to court - and won. He then gave evidence during the Leveson Inquiry, the UK’s landmark investigation into wrongdoing and alleged corruption within the media. In this episode of Bad People, criminal psychologist Dr Julia Shaw and comedian Sofie Hagen discuss why many of us think the media is biased against our own views because of “the hostile media effect”. They talk about the Leveson inquiry and what makes media coverage of crimes bad -- or good. At the end, they summarise what they learned from working on Bad People for the past three and a half years. CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen
Producers: Laura Northedge and Lauren Armstrong-Carter
Assistant Producer: Hannah Ward
Editors: Anna Lacey and Richard Collings
Music: Matt Chandler
Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins
Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland
Production Coordinator: Jonathan Harris#BadPeople_BBC
104. Dark Arts 1: How biasing is pre-trial publicity? (00:37:12)
In December 2010, the UK media became fixated with the disappearance of 25 year-old Joanna Yeates. When her body was discovered, many tabloid newspapers felt certain they knew the identity of her murderer. Christopher Jefferies had been Joanna’s landlord and was considered by some to be “strange”. The claims against Christopher were unfounded. Being hounded by the press left lasting reputational and psychological scars. In this episode of Bad People, Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen ask: is it possible to have a fair trial when the tabloids have decided you are guilty? They explore research on prejudicial pre-trial publicity as well as “media shock” effects after police issue warnings about a killer on the loose. CREDITS Presenters: Dr Julia Shaw and Sofie Hagen
Producers: Laura Northedge and Lauren Armstrong-Carter
Assistant Producer: Hannah Ward
Editors: Anna Lacey and Richard Collings
Music: Matt Chandler
Production Coordinator: Jonathan Harris Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins
Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland #BadPeople_BBC
103. Bad People x People Who Knew Me (00:33:16)
Daniella Isaacs, the creator of the new BBC Sounds audio drama, People Who Knew Me, joins Dr Julia Shaw in a conversation about faking one’s own death and using the terrorist attacks in America on September 11th 2001 to do so. We ask, who fakes their own death and why? And how easy is it to pull it off? Warning: This episode contains references to the 9/11 attacks and also suicide and drowning. CREDITS Presenter: Dr Julia Shaw
Producer: Simona Rata
Assistant Producer: Hannah Ward
Editors: Anna Lacey and Richard Collings
Music: Matt Chandler
Production Coordinator: Jonathan Harris
Commissioning Executive: Dylan Haskins
Commissioning Assistant Producer: Adam Eland #BadPeople_BBC
