Casual chats between an Austrian and Australian on environmental topics that usually don't get talked about openly. Hosts Gunnar Haid and James Hammond set out to provide a light-hearted and thought-provoking look into Contaminated Land, Resource Recovery, Ecology and general environmental issues in Australia, in particular NSW. They use their experience and industry connections to talk about subjects that, at least in their opinion, don't get talked about enough or not in the right context. Join them for a chuckle and some unique perspectives. And don't forget to keep track of your listening experience. It is official, listening to Below the Surface collects CPD points at a rate of 0.5 points per hour of listening (self education category).Contact: bts@4pillars.com.auhttps://www.linkedin.com/company/below-the-surface-podcastThe necessary disclaimer: The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this Podcast are the speakers’ own. They do not necessarily represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of 4Pillars Environmental Consulting Pty Ltd or any Client, Supplier or other party related to 4Pillars or the speakers. (c) Gunnar Haid and James Hammond
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The 2025 Year in Review (That Wasn’t Supposed to Happen) What started as a neat 15-minute intro quietly turned into a full end-of-year wrap-up. Classic Below the Surface. Gunnar and James get side-tracked almost immediately and eventually realise they have recorded the accidental 2025 BTS year in review. They cover listener feedback, behind-the-scenes stats, favourite episodes and a special mention for Sandgate. Personal obsessions make an appearance, with both sharing their top five podcasts...
#36 The Client - TMA (00:43:31)
What it's really like to be regulated? Regulators, take note - this one’s for you. We are shining the light on the third corner of the Regulator – Consultant – Client relationship: the Client. What’s it really like to be on the receiving end of regulation? Do operators of licensed facilities feel supported … or just scrutinised? Are those hefty licence fees worth it? And is there a fair playing field between the licensed and the “let’s-pretend-we-don’t-need-a-licence” crowd? Of co...
#35 The PFAS Heath Advice (00:55:57)
The NSW Health PFAS Advice includes quite some statements: “The health effects of PFAS appear to be small.” “… there was definite evidence of increased psychological distress in … exposed communities, evidence for other adverse health outcomes from this study was limited.” “Interventions that reduce blood PFAS are of uncertain benefit and may cause harm.”These comments seem at odds with much of the mainstream media's presentation around PFAS. Or even the recently drastically reduced...
#34 The Stormwater Stirrer (00:48:52)
Gunnar (without James this time) gives it a go to get to the bottom of the very basics of what we need to think of around stormwater on a site. There are few better suited to talk about the subject than our guest Mircea Stancu, the founder of Cleanstormwater. Mircea is a civil engineer, software engineer and, you guessed it, an expert in anything related to stormwater. He is also quite a flamboyant guest and he and Gunnar managed to put together a show case of the very best of (what Gun...
#33 The Waste Class Blues (00:59:15)
James K (James Karagiannis) has personally completed a stack of waste classifications. And in addition, he has reviewed somewhere between 1,000 and 1,200 reports written by other consultants for our clients. That gives him a rare, panoramic view of what great looks like … and what misses the mark. Gunnar and Hammond, James Hammond, sit down with him to unpack what he sees when reviewing these reports. The original plan was to listen to James K. But with Gunnar’s well-known habit of let’...
#32 The EPA CEO (00:52:49)
Tony Chappel, the CEO of the NSW EPA, is our guest today, so we are definitely back with a bang after the summer holidays. Gunnar and James are (surprisingly!) well-prepared and keep the conversation on track as they dive into Tony’s journey to leading the EPA, his early priorities, the role of politics in environmental regulation, and the importance of deep listening in leadership. They explore everything from the OCSE paper and the EPA's potential collaboration with industry bodies, t...
#31 The Half Price EV (00:59:45)
Electric Vehicles are basically half price in Australia right now, thanks to some little-known government incentives. Gunnar and James decided it was the perfect time to talk… tax. Yes, tax. And you thought resource recovery was a boring subject, right? But before you judge, listen to this episodes. Gunnar and James have brought in the big guns: chartered accountant Paul Mills (paulybmills at gmail.com). It really sounds like the beginning of a bad joke: Two engineers and an accountant ...
#30 The Duplicate (01:19:26)
Gunnar claims almost all duplicates we take serve close to no purpose. If you want to know why, have a listen and be entertained and informed at the same time. The OGs are back together in this episode, and quite an unusual one it is. This times it is James who goes on a few rants, quite to Gunnar's amusement. Of course, Gunnar has a few things to say as well and he will definitively ruffle some feathers with this episode. We start off with playing Wikileaks by talking about a letter th...
#29 The New AS5370 Standard (00:35:00)
Attention Asbestos in Soils Specialists, there is a new kid in town. The Australian Standard 4964-2004 Method for the qualitative identification of asbestos in bulk samples has been superseded with a new AS 5370. What's different? What's better, what's worse? Why are we reporting below the detection and below the reporting limit? Is NATA on board with it? What do all those different sub-categories the laboratories report actually mean? Gunnar is talking to Linda Apthorpe, a Certified O...
#28 The OCSE Odyssey (00:46:09)
The Office of Chief Scientist and Engineer (OCSE) has issued recommendations concerning asbestos in waste and soil. Sarah Mansfield, Special Counsel (and environmental law superstar) at Norton Rose Fulbright, breaks down the key points and their legal implications. Given the focus on the PoEO Act and its handling of asbestos, you'd expect at least one of our hosts to go off the rails with a classic, epic rant. But, against all odds, age, wisdom, and a dash of professionalism took the reins—so...
#27 The Chronicles of an Auditor (00:42:23)
Rod Harwood - do we need to say anything else? There are few who have had more influence on our industry and who have contributed more than Rod. Gunnar had a chat with Rod and while they reminisce about 'the good old days', Rod sprinkles in some anecdotes of his impressive career and shares gems of his incredible knowledge as an engineer and a business man. James was unfortunately unavailable (you know, work and stuff ...), but we promise, this is one everybody in our industry will enjo...
#26 The Quickie (00:32:23)
Gunnar and James take a dive into all sorts of events that have happened in the past few weeks. 1 - The EIANZ announces the punishment of a member. 2 - A $30,000 fine issued by a Council 3 - MASSIVE NEWS: The Office of the Chief Scientist and Engineer has released a recommendation to the NSW Government regarding the "Management of asbestos in recovered fines and recovered materials ...". Gunnar and James present the key points and almost find reasons to celebrate. We start o...
#25 The Duty to Report (00:45:23)
The Duty To Report may seem like a peculiar law in our industry, yet it's just another one of the many quirky regulations that shape our environmental consulting world. As such, it was begging to be turned into a podcast episode. In fact, Gunnar and James are even joking about selling movie rights to this one—so send your offers quickly! In this episode, Gunnar and James sit down with Elizabeth Wild, a distinguished Partner at Jones Day, to unpack the nuances of this obligation. They delve in...
#24 The Recruiter (00:50:55)
Daniel James is someone worth knowing when you are working in our industry. Is he a contaminated sites or resource recovery leader like many of our other guests? No, but he will put you in touch with such experts if you are looking to employ one. His decade long experience as a specialised environmental recruiter gives him a unique insight into the workings behind the scenes of our industry. He shares his experience, talks about how he sees our industry performing in 2025, and also giv...
#23 The Basics: Acid Sulfate Soils (00:55:01)
Acid Sulfate Soils are a tricky subject. The second episode of our "The Basics" series is all about the ASS (oh this acronym is just endlessly amusing, isn't it?). Gunnar and James' guest is Laurie Fox, one of the most recognised and distinguished ASS experts not only in Australia, but globally. Aside from doing fantastic assessment and ASS management work on mind bogglingly big projects himself, Laurie is also committed to improving our industry's understanding of these soils. This im...
#22 The Basics: Planning (00:50:41)
Everything you always wanted to know about planning, but were afraid to ask. If you don't get that movie reference, don't worry, it just means you are much younger than Gunnar, that's all. We are starting a new series called The Basics and we are kicking it off with town planning as the subject. Henry Burnett of DFP Planning is our expert guest. Henry and James go back many years and aside from discussing what town planning is all about, they relive their common past as sales clerks at an ou...
#21 The Forever Plates (00:43:44)
Can eco-friendly plates and food containers made from sugarcane mulch sneak in some hidden PFAS? And can that PFAS end up in your compost, and eventually your garden soil? Cara Roberts and David Springer did the dirty work (literally) to find out. Gunnar and James couldn't wait for them to come onto the podcast and present the scoop. Tune in to hear what they uncovered! Oh, and this time there's no "Gunnar's gone rogue" segment. In fact, he's eating a slice of humble pie after a listen...
#20 The Loophole (00:48:36)
Grey Areas and Loopholes – Where to Draw the Line? This episode dives into the murky waters of our industry's "grey areas", or, if we are re being honest, loopholes. From VENM (Virgin Excavated Natural Material) issues to Council demands for auditors in a gotcha move, to James's creative methods for getting trial waste recycling facilities approved, and even the use of silica gel to clean up tank pit samples - these are some of the fine lines or thin ice areas we navigate in the environmental...
#19 The Inventor (00:31:20)
In a fictitious world where electricity reigns supreme, Gunnar has "invented" a revolutionary engine that uses ... wait for it ... petrol! That’s right, in this universe, electric engines are the norm, and Gunnar is pitching this wild idea of a new type of engine to a venture capitalist, skilfully played by James. We’re taking a detour from our usual lineup of site contamination, waste streams, asbestos scares, and blood lead levels. Instead, Gunnar and James are stepping into the worl...
#18 The Remedial Action Assessment (00:38:04)
A re-think of the classic Preliminary Site Assessment => Detailed Site Assessment => Remedial Action Plan scenario. Guest Andrew Kohlrusch, EPA Auditor and contaminated sites expert extraordinaire, joins Gunnar on an excursion to explore a more bespoke way to assess contaminated sites from the initial stages to the final remediation report. Of course the two veer off into their private lives first and discuss a Billy Joel Maddison Square Garden concert, whether dinner with David ...
#17 The Blueprint (00:41:23)
Australia's landscapes are in serious need of an injection of TLC (Tender Loving Care, not some dyslexic chlorinated hydrocarbon). TLC and a bit of money. $7.3 Billion per year over 10 years to be more precise, according to a recent report published by The Wentworth Group. Our Guest is The Wentworth Group's Prof Mike Grundy, a former Research Director, Soil and Landscapes with CSIRO, and an Adjunct Professor with the University of Sydney. We discuss what is currently going wrong with Austral...
#16 The Sparrow in the Lead Mine (00:46:46)
Measure lead levels in blood of house sparrows and accurately predict lead blood levels in children in that town. No way? Absolutely YES WAY! That is exactly what Prof Simon Griffith with his PhD candidate Max Gillings have achieved in one of their recent papers. From the outside it is all so easy. Go to an area with known high lead impact (towns like Broken Hill or Mt Isa come to mind), catch a few hundred sparrows, take a blood sample from each sparrow (non-destructively by the way), an...
#15 The STEMinist (00:46:35)
How can young (female) professionals tackle the flood of knowledge they must acquire in a fast-paced consulting environment while at the same time having to deal with sometimes perceived but too often real disapproval by established good old boys in meetings or on construction sites? How can you tackle the ever niggling self-doubt? How can you become more like the you you want yourself to be? Hailey Spry from Easterly Point Environmental, a DESI (that’s Queensland’s EPA) Accredited Contamina...
#14 The Honest Truth (00:48:15)
The EPA names and shames a consultancy for allegedly falsifying reports. Meanwhile clients are beginning to use legal privilege as a strategy to avoid potential subpoenas — just as we anticipated in The Power Grab. On a positive note, thanks to The Policy Predicament (yay!), the EPA has made a change to their website, now featuring all policy and regulatory updates in one easily accessible location. Kudos to the EPA! Gunnar and James take the opportunity to talk about ethics, morals and int...
#13 The Train Wreck (00:33:29)
We are thrilled to host Andrew Doig from the Australian Sustainable Business Group, who brings a wealth of knowledge on waste services and legislative review. Andrew guides us through the labyrinth of waste management and landfill approval, focusing on the pressing issues in New South Wales. From the Lucas Heights extension to the Woodlawn mine approval, we dissect the challenges of expanding waste facilities amid the pervasive NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) mentality. Learn the crucial differen...
