Om Cleaning Up: Leadership in an Age of Climate Change
Once a week, Michael Liebreich and Bryony Worthington have a conversation with a leader in clean energy, mobility, climate finance or sustainable development. Informative, inspiring and fun!
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Cleaning Up Redux: Canada's Controversial Queen of Green — Tzeporah Berman (01:05:26)
This episode was originally broadcast in June 2023, watch the episode on YouTube here. Cleaning Up will return with new episodes January 7th, 2026. Tzeporah Berman has been leading environmental campaigns in her native Canada and beyond for over thirty years. Today, she is Chair of the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty, and International Program Director at Stand.earth, the environmental organisation that she co-founded. Tzeporah was formerly co-director of Greenpeace’s Global Climate and Energy Program, and her success campaigning against fossil development has seen her dubbed “Canada’s Queen of Green”. Tzeporah and Michael take in everything from helping turn Meta and other tech giants off coal and onto renewables, fighting fossil and pipeline expansion in Alberta, and whether a non-proliferation treaty could be the solution for a managed decline of fossil fuel use.Read more:The fossil fuel non proliferation treaty website: https://fossilfueltreaty.org
Cleaning Up Redux: Hot Rocks in a Box — Anand Gopal (00:57:40)
This episode was originally broadcast in June 2024.As the world transitions away from fossil fuels, one of the biggest challenges is decarbonizing industrial processes that require consistent, reliable sources of energy to produce high-temperatures. Typically these processes run on fossil gas, but now thermal batteries offer a solution by using electricity to store renewable energy in the form of heat. Anand Gopal, Executive Director of Policy Research at Californian think tank Energy Innovation, joins Baroness Bryony Worthington to discuss his team's research on using thermal batteries to provide heat for manufacturing. Or as he calls them, hot rocks in a box. By storing intermittent solar or wind energy as the heat of molten salts or crushed rocks, thermal batteries can deliver reliable heat on-demand. While the tech is almost at commercial availability, there's still one big obstacle: cost. In many countries it is still much cheaper to use gas over electricity, and that makes powering up thermal batteries uneconomical. So what needs to be done to employ them at scale? And will they take the wind out of hydrogen's sails? Find out on this week's episode of Cleaning Up. Read more: Energy InnovationIndustrial Thermal Batteries: Decarbonizing U.S. Industry While Supporting a High-Renewables GridEnergy Innovation's report on electric vehicle leasingEnergy Innovation's report on electric vs gas carsEnergy Innovation's report on industrial heat in ChinaEnergy Innovation's report on electrification of industrial heat
Stop Worrying About Clean Power, Start Electrifying Everything | Ep238: Lord Adair Turner (01:10:56)
What will be the long-term impact of the US’s great leap backward on clean energy? How will the emergency of China as an electrotech giant reshape geopolitics? And what will be the defining trends and technologies of 2026?In this end-of-year episode of Cleaning Up, Baroness Bryony Worthington is joined by Lord Adair Turner, Chair of the Energy Transitions Commission, for a wide-ranging, candid, and occasionally fiery conversation about where the energy transition truly stands.Looking back on a decade since the Paris Agreement and ahead to the road beyond 2025, Turner delivers a clear-eyed diagnosis: emissions and politics are heading in the wrong direction, but technologies — including solar PV, batteries, and the wider “electrotech stack” — are advancing faster than almost anyone expected.Together, Bryony and Adair unpack why electrification is emerging as the central lever for decarbonising transport, industry, and heat; how China’s clean-tech machine is reshaping global energy economics; and why abundant, ultra-cheap electricity could fundamentally change prosperity, geopolitics, and climate outcomes.They also grapple with the harder questions: affordability versus ambition, the limits of carbon pricing, the challenge of decarbonising steel, cement, aviation and shipping, and the disruptive impact of US politics on global climate cooperation. They debate whether COPs still matter, why “nearly clean” power may be smarter than chasing absolute purity, and what breakthroughs could surprise us next.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Discover more:Energy Transitions Commission: https://www.energy-transitions.org/Power Up: How Clean Energy Is Putting Fossil Fuel Demand in Doubt: https://www.energy-transitions.org/publications/power-up-fossil-fuel-demand-in-doubt/Lord Turner’s previous appearance on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/xxTngGxpeW0 Why Is It So Hard to Clean Up Global Shipping? | Ep229: Tristan Smith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUCidkeDto
Honey, I Shrunk the Oil And Gas Sector | Ep237: Lord John Browne (00:51:22)
What happens when clean energy starts to outgrow fossil fuels at scale? Is it right to call China an electrostate? And how long will we be reliant on hydrocarbons?This week on Cleaning Up, host Michael Liebreich sits down with Lord Browne of Madingley — former CEO of BP and one of the earliest voices inside Big Oil to publicly call for emissions reductions from fossil fuels. Recorded in front of a live audience in London, the discussion explores how geopolitics, energy security, AI, and rising global anxiety are reshaping the path to decarbonisation. Lord Browne reflects on launching BP’s original “Beyond Petroleum” strategy, his current work investing billions through BeyondNetZero, and why the future of climate action will be driven as much by adaptation, resilience, and people as by technology itself.From the rise of China as an electrification juggernaut and the US as an AI-powered energy giant, to the tipping point where clean energy demand could finally outpace fossil fuels, this episode offers rare insight from someone who has shaped — and challenged — the global energy system from the inside.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Discover more:BeyondNetZero: https://www.generalatlantic.com/climate/Lord Browne’s previous appearance on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/8VXQ2EGAcGMThe Pragmatic Climate Reset, Part 1: https://youtu.be/OHKGor2_BzQ
Why Does The UK Pay So Much For Cheap-To-Produce Gas? | Ep236: Seb Kennedy (01:08:43)
What happens when a nation’s energy security rests on volatile global gas markets? Why does the UK pay market prices for some of the world’s cheapest-to-produce gas? And is now the moment to rethink decades of “leave it to the market” dogma?This week on Cleaning Up, Baroness Bryony Worthington sits down with Seb Kennedy, energy journalist and founder of Energy Flux, to unpack the turbulent geopolitics of natural gas, the coming LNG glut, and why the UK–Norway relationship sits at the heart of Britain’s energy affordability crisis.Drawing on their recent joint op-ed, Bryony and Seb explore the UK’s dependence on Norwegian gas, the vast windfalls that have flowed into Norway’s sovereign wealth fund since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and whether a new bilateral deal could shield consumers from future price shocks. They examine the structural forces reshaping global gas markets, the rise of speculative trading, and whether electrification will become harder when gas gets cheap.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Discover more:Read Seb & Bryony’s Op-Ed on Energy Flux: https://www.energyflux.news/uk-norway-gas-trade-time-for-a-new-deal/Seb’s Energy Flux Podcast: https://www.energyflux.news/tag/podcast/Michael’s conversation with Carine Ihenecho Smith, Chief Governance and Compliance Officer at Norges Bank Investment Group: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H028Vwf7pNMThe UK’s updated plan for the North Sea gas transition: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/north-sea-future-plan-for-fair-managed-and-prosperous-transitionBritain eases opposition to new oil, gas permits, holds firm on taxes | Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/uk-government-allows-some-new-oil-gas-fields-holds-firm-taxes-2025-11-26/
Inside Europe’s Largest AI Data Centre: A Green Giant Rises | Ep235: Robert Dunn (01:02:52)
What does it take to build Europe’s largest and most sustainable data-centre campus, from an empty plot of land to a 1.2-gigawatt giant of AI? How do you future-proof a facility when chip technology is evolving at breakneck speed? And what happens when the site of former coal-fired power plant becomes a global hub for AI?In this special, on-location episode of Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich visits Sines, Portugal, where Start Campus is transforming the site of a decommissioned coal plant into a next-generation data-centre campus that once finished will be Europe’s largest data centre. CEO Robert Dunn takes us inside the first operational building, currently 29MW but just 2.5% of what’s to come, to explore the engineering, economics, and vision behind a €10 billion physical infrastructure build that will eventually house an additional €40 billion in incoming IT hardware.From earthquake-proof structures to seawater cooling and uninterruptible power supply systems, Rob breaks down what it means to design for 99.99999% uptime in an AI-driven world. Michael and Rob also dive into the reality and hype surrounding AI: the surge in GPU-hungry AI training, the race to build at gigawatt scale, the challenges of financing these mega-projects, and the balancing act between speed, cost, sustainability, and long-term viability.Set against the backdrop of Microsoft’s freshly announced $10 billion investment in the Sines campus, this episode illuminates how the data-centre industry is reshaping global energy systems, local communities, and the future of compute.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Discover more:Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/juAyLAUmU3wThe Start Campus website: https://www.startcampus.pt/Microsoft makes one of its largest investments in Europe at Start Campus in Portugal: https://www.startcampus.pt/microsoft-makes-one-of-its-largest-investments-in-europe-at-start-campus-in-portugalMichael’s Green Giant’s Whitepaper: https://pioneerpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2021.11.17-Green-Giants-White-Paper-Final.pdfThe Year Energy Woke Up To AI | Audioblog 14: Generative AI, The Power and the Glory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwZ2iNh133A
California vs Trump In The Battle For Clean Air | Ep234: Liane Randolph (01:13:19)
What happens when the world’s most ambitious climate state runs head-on into a hostile federal government? Can California still lead the clean-energy transition while battling rising costs, wildfires and the Trump government’s sweeping tariffs? And what does a “pragmatic reset” on climate policy look like when the stakes have never been higher?This week on Cleaning Up Bryony Worthington sits down with Liane Randolph, former Chair of the California Air Resources Board (CARB) and longtime public servant, shaping California’s climate, energy, and air-quality strategy. Across roles spanning the Public Utilities Commission and state natural resources agencies, Randolph has been at the center of some of the most consequential policy decisions in the United States — from the rise of rooftop solar and utility-scale storage to the creation of zero-emission vehicle mandates and the state’s pioneering cap-and-invest system.Together, they unpack how California built the modern EV market, the origins of the famous “duck curve,” and why central planning turned out to be critical for keeping the lights on in a decarbonizing grid. Randolph also details the extraordinary federal pushback now facing the state: repealed Clean Air Act waivers, legal battles over truck and car standards, and tariff-driven supply-chain shocks that threaten progress.The episode explores:The past and future of California’s zero-emission vehicle strategy — from catalytic converters to the birth of TeslaWhy batteries exploded onto the grid, and how wildfire adaptation is reshaping costsThe mechanics and impacts of California’s whole-economy cap-and-invest programThe new affordability crisis — and whether a pragmatic climate “reset” is neededElectric aviation, high-speed rail, and the technologies California should bet on nextThe state’s 2045 net-zero planning — and which sectors will need breakthroughs like DAC and industrial CCSLeadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Discover more:CARB: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/First Cars, Now Planes: Is The Future of Flying Electric? Ep194: Anders Forslund: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW3uTBbAGHAWhy Is It So Hard to Clean Up Global Shipping? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUCidkeDto
The €65 Billion Plan to Modernise Germany’s Grids | Ep233: Tim Meyerjürgens (01:03:16)
What does it take to future-proof Europe’s electricity grid? How do you finance €65 billion in infrastructure without driving up consumer electricity costs? And can the permitting process be sped up to become fast enough for the energy transition?This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with Tim Meyerjürgens, CEO of TenneT Germany, the country’s largest transmission system operator, to explore the physics and finance behind decarbonising Europe’s power networks.From billion-euro transmission lines to the domestic and international politics of connecting the North Sea’s vast offshore wind potential with Germany’s industrial heartland, Meyerjürgens offers a rare inside view of one of Europe’s most complex and capital-intensive transitions.The conversation dives into:• How TenneT split its Dutch and German operations to attract €9.5 billion in equity from investors like Norges Bank and GIC• The challenge of accelerating grid buildout from 20-year to 5-year timelines• The delicate balance between regulation, investment, and public acceptance• Why building our transmission across Europe is key to energy resilienceThis episode was supported by TenneT Germany.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Discover more:• TenneT Germany’s website: https://www.tennet.eu/de-en/home • TenneT Germany successfully concludes syndication of €12 billion revolving credit facility: https://www.tennet.eu/de-en/news/tennet-germany-successfully-concludes-syndication-eu12-billion-revolving-credit-facility• The £60 Billion Plan To Rewire Britain | Ep227: John Pettigrew: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Lg1A958aA• Can Europe Survive the Renewables Transition? Ep201: Nikos Tsafos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUvKzs82Mi0
Why There'll Never Be A Hydrogen Economy | Ep232: Erik Rakhou (01:07:07)
Is green hydrogen a ‘miracle fuel’ or an expensive illusion? Can we decarbonize without it? And what happens when hydrogen hype meets hard economics?This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich debates Erik Rakhou, author of Touching Hydrogen Future, in a no-holds-barred discussion moderated by Andrew Critchlow of S&P Global Commodity Insights.Together, they contest one of the most contentious topics in energy today: hydrogen. Liebreich argues that hydrogen is plagued by physics-driven cost barriers and limited real-world applications, while Rakhou defends its potential as a critical tool for industrial decarbonization, energy resilience, and long-term security.From the potential of green vs. blue hydrogen, to global ammonia trade routes, Europe’s pipeline ambitions, and China’s hydrogen cost curve, this debate pulls no punches. Topics include:Whether there’ll ever be a hydrogen-based economyWhy hydrogen economics remain so challengingThe role of carbon pricing vs. subsidiese-Fuels and hydrogen’s place in transport, steel, and aviationWhy electrification trumps hydrogenThis episode was recorded at the S&P Global offices in London and originally broadcast as a S&P Global webinar on October 29, 2025. THanks to S&P Global and Andrew Critchlow for hosting the debate.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Read more:Erik's website: https://rakhou.comThe EU’s hydrogen strategy: https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/eus-energy-system/hydrogen_enData on EU natural gas prices 2010-2025: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1buQTdpQOMShue-zXyZUYVgZ9dPe5rZ5Y/view?usp=share_linkMichael Liebreich's Keynote Speech at World Hydrogen Congress 2022: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj900aBPkiYErik’s book ‘Touching Hydrogen Futures’: https://europeangasmarket.euEuropean Court of Auditors call for a hydrogen reality check: https://www.eca.europa.eu/en/news/NEWS-SR-2024-11Michael’s Pragmatic Climate Reset: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-the-pragmatic-climate-reset-part-i/
The Electrotech Revolution Will Not Be Fossilized | Ep231: Kingsmill Bond (00:49:53)
What if the energy transition isn’t about sacrifice and belt-tightening, but abundance? Are electrified technologies ready to replace the polluting fossil fuel system we’re so reliant on? And what will it mean for western nations if they can’t keep up with China? In this special bonus episode of Cleaning Up, recorded live in Berlin, Michael Liebreich sits down with Kingsmill Bond, strategist at Ember, to unpack The Electrotech Revolution, a powerful new framing of the global shift from a fossil-fuel economy to an electrified, efficient, and inevitable clean energy system.Together, Kingsmill and Michael explore why the growth of solar and wind is now outpacing fossil fuels worldwide, how China’s leadership is reshaping the global landscape, and what Europe and the US must do to compete. Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Links and more:Ember’s Electrotech Revolution Report: https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/the-electrotech-revolution/Ember’s Funders: https://ember-energy.org/about/Lauri Myllyvirta on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/FqjvCeR9VLgMichael’s Pragmatic Reset Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHKGor2_BzQMichael’s Pragmatic Reset Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFF1imh1U2c
COP30: Caught Between An Electrostate and A Petrostate | Ep230: Rachel Kyte (00:59:42)
This week on Cleaning Up, we welcome back Rachel Kyte, the UK’s Special Representative for Climate Change, for a deep dive into the shifting landscape of global climate diplomacy ahead of COP30 in Belém, Brazil.Rachel brings decades of experience — from leading Sustainable Energy for All under Ban Ki-Moon to senior roles at the World Bank and IFC — to unpack how countries, investors, and institutions are navigating the new era of implementation.Together, Michael and Rachel explore:How the UK is re-engaging globally on climate and energy policy.The evolution of climate finance and why capital still struggles to flow into emerging markets.Which path the world will follow, the US petrostate model, or China’s electrostate model.Why investing in grids, governance, and infrastructure is still missing from the energy transition.What to expect at COP30 — from forest finance to a possible rethink of the annual COP model.And how countries from Africa to Asia are shaping their own pathways to clean growth and energy security.Rachel also reflects on public attitudes, the politicization of climate action, and the need for pragmatic cooperation over rhetoric.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Links and more:Rachel’s first appearance on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/Umq5pICThDMInside the World's Biggest Investor - Ep138: Carine Smith IhenachoThe Planet's Leading Diplomat - Ep70: Ban Ki-moonSustainable Energy for All - Ep16: Dr Kandeh K. Yumkella
The US Just Sank Shipping's Big Plan for Decarbonization, What Now? | Ep229: Tristan Smith (01:16:00)
Global shipping contributes about 3% of global greenhouse gas emissions, equivalent to the total emissions of Japan or Germany. The sector, including its contribution to climate change, is governed by the International Maritime Organisation or the IMO, which is a UN agency based in London in the United Kingdom.Last week, the International Maritime Organisation gathered to vote on a proposal to reduce emissions from ships that had been agreed to in principle earlier this year. And ahead of the gathering, most people intimately involved in the process thought the proposal would pass. But that wasn’t the case. The US stepped in at the last minute and pressured all those gathered to delay the vote on the proposal for another 12 months.This week on Cleaning Up, host Bryony Worthington sits down with Professor Tristan Smith, a leading expert on shipping decarbonisation from UCL Energy Institute, to unpack the dramatic events at the latest International Maritime Organization meeting — where the United States’ last-minute intervention derailed a landmark vote on cutting emissions from ships.Together, they explore:How global shipping, responsible for around 3% of greenhouse gas emissions, became a critical test case for international climate policyWhy the IMO’s proposed carbon intensity regulation could have marked the beginning of the end for oil and LNG as marine fuelsThe “Tariff diplomacy” and other threats that reshaped global negotiationsWhat this means for COP30 and other multilateral agreements.Bryony and Tristan also dive deep into possible solutions: from e-fuels, ammonia, and battery electrification to nuclear propulsion — weighing what’s practical, what’s political, and what’s merely wishful thinking.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:Is Shipping the Easiest "Hard-to-Abate" Sector? - Ep143: Johannah Christensen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umPAonV20cMThe IMO website: https://www.imo.org/Michael’s Substack on the IMO decision: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/imo-members-choose-between-the-us
How To Move Away From Fossil Fuels Faster — Bryony Grills Michael on The Pragmatic Climate Reset | Ep228 (01:05:47)
This summer, Michael Liebreich wrote two essays under the title of the Pragmatic Climate Reset. The first challenged the idea that the clean energy transition has failed. And the second challenged the clean energy and climate community to a reset, exploring eight areas which he thinks the transition has gone astray.In this special episode, Bryony Worthington sits down with Michael Liebreich, to unpack Part 2 of “The Pragmatic Climate Reset.”Michael lays out a bold vision for cutting through the noise — replacing ideology with realism, and paralysis with progress. From net zero targets and critical minerals to global politics, energy security, and the economics of clean tech, this is a conversation about what it takes to deliver a just and workable climate transition.Bryony asks Michael,Why criticise Greta Thunberg rather than call out anti-climate commentators like Joe Rogan or President Trump?Did he go too easy on the fossil fuel industry?What does he think he got wrong?How has the essay been received, and did he get any good feedback, either positive or negative.Michael puts forward the idea that if the transition is to succeed in the long run and keep the public on board, we must proceed as a tortoise, not a hare, building on the considerable momentum of renewables to phase fossil fuels out of our energy mix while also keeping energy affordable, and everyone’s lights on.Listen now, or watch the full episode on YouTube.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:Read Part I here: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-the-pragmatic-climate-reset-part-i/Read Part 2, here: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-the-pragmatic-climate-reset-part-ii-a-provocation/Watch the first part of the pragmatic climate reset: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHKGor2\_BzQExplore all of Michael's audioblogs and essays: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLe8ZTD7dMaaAGobfBqd5eRQfeb5l9vPLG
The £60 Billion Plan To Rewire Britain | Ep227: John Pettigrew (01:01:14)
What does it take to rewire a nation’s energy system? Can we make the grid cleaner, smarter, and more resilient — without driving up bills? And how will the explosion of AI data centres reshape the future of electricity demand?This week on Cleaning Up, host Michael Liebreich sits down with John Pettigrew, outgoing CEO of National Grid, for a candid conversation marking the end of his 35-year career. Together they explore the UK’s £60 billion plan to deliver Clean Power by 2030, the race to build transmission for offshore wind, the growing strain from AI-driven electricity demand, and lessons from major outages in Spain and Heathrow.Pettigrew reflects on the evolving “energy trilemma” — balancing decarbonisation, reliability, and affordability — shares reflections from his 35-year career: what’s changed, what went wrong, and what comes next for the grids powering our clean energy future.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:John’s first appearance on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/1HVcJuO9dNIRoger Dennis on Cleaning Up 'The Price of Resilience': https://youtu.be/CELQT31riDENational Grid’s £60 billion plan: https://www.nationalgrid.com/gridforgrowthNational Energy System Operator (NESO): https://www.neso.energy/Final report from what happened to the Heathrow substation: https://www.neso.energy/news/final-report-review-north-hyde-substation-outage
What India Gets Right About The Energy Transition | Ep226: Dr Arunabha Ghosh (01:11:10)
What does it take for India to deliver electricity to hundreds of millions while simultaneously building a fast-growing clean energy system? Can it overcome its fossil dependence to secure its energy futures with renewables? And how will India’s development choices shape the global climate fight in the decades ahead?India, like China, is home to over a billion people, and is highly reliant on imported fossil fuels and domestic coal. But unlike China, it still has a very rural population and has not yet experienced the rapid rise in per capita energy consumption that accompanied China’s recent development boom. The future path India takes to development is therefore of critical importance.In this episode of Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington sits down with Dr. Arunabha Ghosh, founder and CEO of the Council on Energy, Environment and Water, and Special Envoy for COP30. Together they explore India’s “twin transition”, achieving universal energy access while driving a massive expansion of clean power. From the data-driven electrification of 130 million households, to innovations in market design that slashed solar prices, to India’s push for secure, diversified green supply chains, this conversation reveals a rarely told side of India’s energy transition story.Arunabha also shares insights on India’s role in international climate diplomacy, the significance of cooperation with China and Brazil, and the urgent need for hyper-local climate risk assessment to protect communities from extreme weather.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:Council on Energy, Environment and Water website: https://www.ceew.in/India hits 50% non-fossil power milestone ahead of 2030 clean energy target: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/india-hits-50-non-fossil-power-milestone-ahead-2030-clean-energy-target-2025-07-14/How can India make the leap to become a green, clean country? https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/sep/28/huge-energy-challenges-how-can-india-make-leap-green-clean-country
Can We Save the Great Barrier Reef? | Ep225: Dr Katharina Fabricius (00:57:56)
Why should we care about coral reefs? What happens when they collapse? And is there still hope for their survival?In this episode of Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington sits down with coral reef ecologist Dr. Katharina Fabricius, who has witnessed six mass bleaching events on the Great Barrier Reef over her three decades of research.From the “seven sins of climate change” threatening reefs — heat waves, acidification, storms, nutrient runoff, and more — to the resilience and surprising adaptability of corals, Katharina offers a sobering yet hopeful look at the future of our oceans. Together, they explore the science, politics, and moral responsibility of protecting one of the world’s most critical ecosystems, and why the fate of coral reefs is deeply tied to human survival.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links:Ep180: Dr Helen Czerski on Oceans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fORkPoR48SUThe latest AIMS report on the state of the Great Barrier Reef: https://www.aims.gov.au/monitoring-great-barrier-reef/gbr-condition-summary-2024-25The Seven Sins of Climate Change report
Audioblog 16: The Pragmatic Climate Reset, Part II — A Provocation (01:06:55)
The election of Donald Trump to a second term as President marked a turning point in the politics of climate action – not just in the US, but around the world.The airwaves are suddenly awash with commentators, claiming that the transition has failed, that it was always a fool’s errand, and that we must resign ourselves to a fossil-based future forever.The narratives of failure all revel in pointing out that we have not seen dramatic cuts in fossil fuel use globally, consistent with keeping the temperature increase to 1.5C, and are not on track to achieve global net zero by 2050.The climate and clean energy community is facing a choice. It can remain reactive, doubling down on old narratives, pressing on with existing policies, preaching to the converted and watching the pace of change slow for the next few years.Or it can undertake what I call a Pragmatic Climate Reset: Wind back historical over-reach, accept harsh realities, address legitimate concerns, refresh its offer and find new ways of communicating with a confused public.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:• Read the full article on BNEF: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-the-pragmatic-climate-reset-part-ii-a-provocation/• Watch the first part of the pragmatic climate reset: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHKGor2_BzQ
Less Doom, More Data: Debunking the Biggest Climate Myths | Ep223: Dr. Hannah Ritchie (01:10:03)
Is the future of clean energy and climate solutions brighter than we think? In this episode of Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich welcomes back Hannah Ritchie — Deputy Editor at Our World in Data, researcher at the Oxford Martin School, and author of her new book, Clearing the Air.In Clearing the Air, Hannah tackles 50 of the most common myths and misconceptions about climate solutions, from “Isn’t climate action too polarised and politically divisive to fix?” to “What happens when the wind doesn’t blow?” and “Won’t the world run out of minerals?” Hannah dives into the data behind renewables, electric cars, nuclear power, grids, and even lab-grown meat — cutting through the noise with clarity.Michael quizzes Hannah on why she wrote the book and what she hopes to achieve with it, and whether it has the potential to change the minds of climate skeptics. This conversation offers a grounded, accessible look at what really works, what doesn’t, and why we should feel more hopeful than the doom-filled narratives suggest.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links & more:Clearing The Air: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/462676/clearing-the-air-by-ritchie-hannah/9781784745745Ep147: Dr Hannah Ritchie: https://youtu.be/fMLmeWc7NFoEp178: Dr Andy Palmer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzDWFFRDK8oDecarbonising the Last Few Percent: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/decarbonizing-the-last-few-percent
Malcolm Turnbull: Clean Energy Culture Wars and The Race To Build More Storage | Ep 222 (01:12:38)
What happens when cheap solar flips the script on climate sceptics? Can pumped hydro really deliver the long-duration storage we need? And is “hope” a dangerous comforter in the race to net zero?In this season opener of Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with Malcolm Turnbull — former Prime Minister of Australia, lawyer, statesman, energy investor, and climate champion. From leading Australia through fierce political battles over climate policy to now spearheading renewable projects through Turnbull Renewables, he offers a rare insider’s perspective on the global clean energy transition.Turnbull and Liebreich explore the clash between optimism and realism in climate action: why cheap solar is reshaping politics, the promise and pitfalls of green hydrogen, and whether pumped hydro could be the long-duration storage solution the world needs. Along the way, they reflect on U.S. politics under Trump, trade negotiations without American leadership, and why “hope is not a strategy” when it comes to energy security.Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:Snowy 2.0: https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/International Hydropower Association: https://www.hydropower.org/Green Trade or Green Trade-Off - Ep52: Tony AbbottHow Big Things (Should) Get Done - Ep128: Prof. Bent FlyvbjergIs The Tide Turning On Hydrogen? Ep210: Andrew ForrestYa Basta: https://liebreich.com/214-2/The Spycatcher Trial: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/sep/14/malcolm-turnbull-spycatcher-lawyer-prime-minister
Cleaning Up Redux: A Magnificent Woman And Her Flying Machines - Bonny Simi (00:58:14)
This episode was originally broadcast in February 2024Bryony returns with Bonny Simi, President of Operations at Joby Aviation, where she's working on bringing to market a new civilian electric VTOL (eVTOL) aircraft. Prior to joining the team at Joby, Bonny held several operational and strategic roles at JetBlue Most notably, she founded and led JetBlue Technology Ventures, investing in improving the travel, hospitality, and transportation industries. As a pilot, Bonny has commanded Boeing, Airbus and Embraer aircraft at both United Airlines and JetBlue Airways. She is also an Emmy-nominated sports reporter and a 3-time Olympian in the sport of Luge. She holds a BA in Communications, a MS in Management and a MS in Engineering, all from Stanford University, as well as a MS in Human Resources from Regis University. Links and more:Watch the full video of this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldy_NC-Doi4First Piloted eVTOL Air Taxi Flight Between Two Public Airports: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDNo3VYiOcsJoby's website: https://www.jobyaviation.com Read about Joby's partnership with the US DoD here: https://www.jobyaviation.com/news/joby-delivers-first-evtol-edwards/ Hear Bonny talk more about her lessons from competing in luge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj9Ey6fdnT0 Listen to the theme song from Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines (the title inspiration for this episode!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPgS26ZhqZs
Cleaning Up Redux: From Free Solo to Free Solar — Alex Honnold (01:02:25)
This episode was originally broadcast in April 2022Alex Honnold is one of the world’s best rock climbers, famous for his free solo ascents of big walls, including his 2017 first free solo of El Capitan in Yosemite.Alex began studies in engineering at the University of California-Berkeley but dropped out to pursue his passion for climbing, living out of his van. He first attracted attention within the climbing community in 2008 when he became the first climber to free solo Half Dome in Yosemite. In 2012 he established the speed record for the Yosemite Triple Crown, climbing three big walls in under 19 hours. With Hans Florine, Alex climbed the popular Nose of El Capitan, a nearly 3,000-foot granite wall, in a record time of two hours 23 minutes and 51 seconds – a feat National Geographic described as perhaps " the greatest feat of pure rock climbing in the history of the sport."Alex has been profiled by 60 minutes and the New York Times, appeared on the cover of National Geographic and starred in numerous adventure films. In 2015, together with professional climbing writer David Roberts, he authored Alone on the Wall, the story of seven of his greatest climbing feats up to that year.In 2012 Alex founded the Honnold Foundation to provide solar power to some of the disadvantaged communities he was coming across in his climbing career. In 2021 the Foundation supported 44 communities across 17 countries with its brand of community-centered innovation catalysed by solar energy.Links and more:Watch the video of this episode: https://youtu.be/MwmQf0mhHkEHonnold Foundation: https://www.honnoldfoundation.org/Free Solo Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urRVZ4SW7WUFree Solo website: https://films.nationalgeographic.com/free-soloThe Ascent of Alex Honnold – CBS special report with Lara Logan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR1jwwagtaQEduro Corner: The most exposed move of Alex’s Free Solo climb of El Capitan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blfR33DUqsgProject Bo: https://www.projectbo.org/Project Bo, lessons learned: https://www.liebreich.com/project-bo-saving-lives-in-sierra-leone-with-solar-batteries-and-twitter/
The Inevitable End of Fossil Fuels | Ep221: Michael Liebreich & Bryony Worthington (01:00:59)
What if the energy transition isn't a race, but a steady march toward the end of fossil fuel usage? Do we need to move more like the tortoise, and less like the hare? And in a world of competing narratives, who gets to define "pragmatism"?In this season finale of Cleaning Up, hosts Michael Liebreich and Bryony Worthington unpack these questions as they review Season 15's most compelling conversations about energy transformation, and celebrate five years of Cleaning Up. They dissect the current political landscape, particularly the challenges facing clean energy in the United States, and Bryony grills Michael on his recent Bloomberg essay on the "Pragmatic Climate Reset."This is the final episode of Season 15 of Cleaning Up, join us in September for the start of Season 16.Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more:Watch all the episodes in Season 15 of Cleaning Up: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLe8ZTD7dMaaB2B4gQpVBd34bjcF1w0BpP&feature=sharedSee our archive of over 200 episodes at https://www.cleaningup.live/
Audioblog 15: The Pragmatic Climate Reset Part 1 — The Energy Transition Is Not Dead (00:27:59)
In February, veteran fossil industry advisor Dan Yergin and two co-authors published a piece called The Troubled Transition. In it they dismiss the idea that there is or can ever be an energy transition, anchored on the fact that fossil fuels contributed 85% to so-called primary energy in 1990 and still contribute 80% today. Needless to say, their argument has been widely amplified by the oil and gas industry. They conclude with a demand for a new approach – which they call a “pragmatic path”. Pragmatism is needed, but not the pragmatism of defeat. Not the ‘pragmatism’ of believing fossil fuels hold the key to further human progress. Not the ‘pragmatism’ of addressing climate change only if it suits the interests of fossil-fuel companies. What is needed is the pragmatism of robust but affordable climate action. This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich debunks narratives that trumpet the alleged failure of climate action, and explains why a pragmatic climate reset is needed.Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Links and more: Read the full article on BNEF: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-the-pragmatic-climate-reset-part-i/Tony Blair Institute Climate Reset Report: https://institute.global/insights/climate-and-energy/the-climate-paradox-why-we-need-to-reset-action-on-climate-changeMichael Cembalest 15th annual Eye On The Market: https://am.jpmorgan.com/content/dam/jpm-am-aem/global/en/insights/eye-on-the-market/heliocentrism-amv.pdfDan Yergin et al, The Troubled Transition: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/troubled-energy-transition-yergin-orszag-aryaGenerative AI – The Power and the Glory: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-generative-ai-the-power-and-the-glory/Five Superheroes of the Transition: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-net-zero-will-be-harder-than-you-think-and-easier-part-ii-easier/Tony Blair on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/Ko90KbFKBnIDan Yergin on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QIh4U3Vgjc
The Inflation Induction Act: How the US Lost The Race for Clean Energy | Ep 219: Ethan Zindler (01:09:06)
Is the US about to enter a new era of energy inflation? Can technological progress outpace political regression? Are we witnessing the permanent end of America's climate ambitions?This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with Ethan Zindler, former climate counselor to Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen, now head of countries and policy at BloombergNEF, to dissect the dramatic shifts in US energy policy. Fresh from the passage of the "One Big Beautiful Bill," Zindler reveals how recent legislation in the US could set back clean energy development by years, potentially undermining investments in wind, solar and electric vehicles. There are a couple of brighter spots too, with costs in some technologies falling so rapidly that they might escape the drag of the current administration, and other technologies — like advanced geothermal and nuclear — seeing an uptick in support. Zindler brings the latest analysis from BloombergNEF to Cleaning Up to help unpack the One Big Beautiful Bill and what it means for the future of US energy policy.Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Links and more: Could Trump 2.0 Roll Back The IRA? Ep181: Ethan Zindler – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf5_r3V3Vs8The Future of Clean Tech Under Trump — Ep198: Jigar Shah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOaF-qQ_TUElon Musk and Michael’s 2007 testimony to Senate Committee on Energy & Natural Resources: https://www.energy.senate.gov/hearings/2007/3/hearing-ECF571D9-2A3E-444F-A0F0-1C18EE28FFF3
North Sea Oil & Gas Is Dying, What Comes Next? | Ep218: Tessa Khan (00:57:58)
If the UK can’t ditch fossil fuels, who can? What impact would more drilling in the North Sea have for UK energy prices? What does the end of the net zero consensus mean for UK energy policy?This week on Cleaning Up, host Bryony Worthington sits down with Tessa Khan, founder of Uplift, a charity challenging the oil and gas industry's hold on UK energy policy. A lawyer turned campaigner, Khan offers incisive analysis of why the North Sea's fossil fuel era must end.Drawing from her background in international human rights and development, Khan reveals how the UK could become a global pioneer in energy transformation. She unpacks the economic myths perpetuated by the oil and gas lobby, exposes the minimal benefits of continued extraction, and champions a just transition to renewable energy.With the UK at a critical political crossroads, Khan offers a masterclass in strategic advocacy, blending data, political insight, and a passionate vision for a sustainable future. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Discover more:Tessa Khan’s organisation, Uplift: https://www.upliftuk.org/Uplift’s report on the future of the North Sea: https://www.upliftuk.org/post/the-future-of-the-north-seaUK Oil & Gas Reserves Report: https://www.nstauthority.co.uk/media/8394/reserves-and-resources-2022.pdfBBC article on Rosebank emissions guidance: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c994v5dy3p0o
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