Designer & Designer is a podcast about design. Each episode dives into a design topic with candor and humor, exposing the rarely talked about challenges that designers face, and what it takes to create great design.
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MentionedMedium’s Snowflake Growth Tool (original GitHub repo) Stanford Product Design Rubric (Stanford Design Program)I, X and T shaped DesignersBook: Radical Candor by Kim ScottBook: The Visual MBA (or Creative MBA — verify the exact title)Short Story: The Swimmer by John CheeverNewsletter: Good Work by Joe Alterio – goodwork.isTopics Discussed Growth ladders: how to define and measure designer growth Craft vs. Influence vs. Ownership vs. Communication vs. Engagement Developing fair, non-linear growth frameworks (including a Medium-inspired "Snowflake Tool") Challenges of upper-level design leadership (craft ≠ promotion criteria) Managing biases and subjectivity in design career advancement Importance of presence and communication (even on Slack!) Transitioning from craft-focused design to diplomacy, storytelling, and team leadership Reflection on the potential "end of an era" for traditional product design careers Life reflections: parenting, aging, mortality, and evolving beyond professional identity🎬 Sneak peek: Next season’s theme — Top 10 Design Films exploration!Pull Quotes"At the upper levels, it's not about pixels anymore — it's about affecting change within other human beings." — Joe"Presence matters. Even in Slack. It’s visibility, engagement, and political capital." — Brian"We’ve reached the end of something... but the beginning of something else." — Brian"Growth isn’t just learning new tools — it’s learning how to move people and systems." — Joe📣 Shout-outsTo everyone who has listened across these 50 episodes — thank you for helping us grow. To our future selves: onward to new creative adventures (and maybe even bagel making).Connect with Joe & BrianWebsite: designer.fmEmail: designer@designer.fmPlease like, subscribe, and give us any feedback!Outro music: Bridge to Hawaii by Tacocat
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Prompts vs Pixels (00:46:40)
MentionedV0 by Vercel that generates front-end codeBuilder.io for creating UI flows from language promptsUXPilot for generating UI from specsLovable for different design stylesPerplexity as a tool that bypasses SEO spamWhy do AI company logos look like buttholes?Jakob's Law of Internet User Experience23:48 Brian says he didn’t do a great job unpacking the confusion and buzz around “agentic AI” and that many people conflate multi-shot prompts, agentic AI and AI agents. Most real world “agentic AI” today doesn’t exactly match the definition used in research papers around AI agents.38:00 Great story of a UX designer using Figma’s MCP (Model Context Protocol) Server and Cursor to create functional code.41:00 The Shape of AI | UX Patterns for Artificial Intelligence DesignTopics DiscussedLarge Language Models (LLMs) vs other AI technologiesThe rapid standardization of AI interface patternsAI tools in designers' current workflowsMulti-shot prompts and agentic systemsThe tension between "prompts vs pixels" in product developmentHow AI is changing the designer's roleThe new "industrial revolution" we're experiencing with AIPull Quotes"Most AI researchers believe that the AI models have already reached 100% scouring of the web, right? So anything that's public is probably in those foundational models, which means they're not really going to grow much in the next five years." –Brian"It will make the most basic patterns. It will pull the most basic stuff... But what it won't do is it won't make it interesting." –Joe"I was a little bit stunned by how quickly that locked into amber... that they're all chat-based interfaces. They all use magic wands or sparkles or something." –Joe"A society that prioritizes productivity is a society without imagination... if the goal is to just get the data as fast as possible to do things better and faster, you are saving time for what?" –Joe"This is a new enlightenment. This is a new industrial revolution... Everything is changing." –JoeOther Resources on AI & DesignThe case against conversational interfacesEmerging UI/UX Patterns in Generative AI: A Visual GuideUX patterns for AI-powered experiencesEmerging UX patterns in Generative AI experiencesWhat I’ve learned from 18 mths of AI conversational UI designGenerative AI UX Design PatternsScarcity and Abundance in 2025Connect with Joe & BrianWebsite: designer.fmEmail: designer@designer.fmPlease like, subscribe, and give us any feedback!Outro music: In the Year 2525 by Zager & Evans
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Mini Episode: Zuckerberg, AI, and the Long Game (00:13:59)
MentionedArthur C. Clarke did die in 2008. Brian has no idea what he saw now.The Tech Oligarchy ArrivesMark Zuckerberg's political shiftMeta's Llama AI models versus other foundational models"Making the world a better place" from Silicon Valley TV showThe world is not as bad as we think it is. HyperFixed: Kristen Has DoubtsAlternative social platforms (Bluesky, Glass, Pencil Booth)Starting a Series B CompanyClimate tech investmentsTopics DiscussedBig tech's rightward shiftCorporate motives behind progressive policiesTech's abandoned idealismReclaiming technology for social goodFinding hope in alternative platformsPull Quotes"There was all this optimism about changing the world, making the world a better place.""The masks are off and you understand that a lot of the family friendly policies and the pride banners and all that stuff, it is strictly employee morale capture.""The bloom is off the rose.""We've got to figure out a way to take it back. Social media and the web, those are ours. That belongs to us, the people.""Long game, long game. Let's collect our shit together, support each other. We can do this."Connect with Joe & BrianWebsite: designer.fmEmail: designer@designer.fmDon't forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts!Outro music: Hard Times by Baby Huey
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Big Rooms, Small Rooms (00:45:34)
MentionedOranssi PazusuMIke SugarmanBlackgazeContext CollaspeDesigning for the PluriverseEnshittificationProSocial MediaKala, the Suburban MinerTopics DiscussedHow did we get to this place of totally siloed communal activity?Big Rooms and Small RoomsWhere the Weird Still IsMaking the web civic-minded againEthan Link'sEthan's Personal WebsiteThe Initiative for Digital Public InfrastructureFreq.SocialGobo.socialConnect with Joe & BrianWebsite: designer.fmEmail: designer@designer.fmDon't forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts!Outro music: Delirium Tremens by Protector✌️When in doubt, PLUR.✌️
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Presenting Design (00:35:11)
MentionedWhat Was the TED Talk? from our super smart friend Jay Fienberg (who you should hire!)Topics DiscussedWhy don't designers learn how to present design?Do's and Don't for design presentationsTo Neg or Not to Neg? That is the question.The exhausting reality of "performing"Pull Quotes"Amateur hour is when someone spends all their bullets in the first minute... You got to keep some in reserve." –Joe"If you act like you've done this so many times that you know what the problem is and you are bored by the details, you have convinced someone already that you can solve it." –Joe"People gather artifacts and data when they don't trust themselves to actually have the answer." –Joe"I continue to believe that we have the hardest job out of anyone in technology because we have to balance so many different things." –Brian"It's the job." –BrianConnect with Joe & BrianWebsite: designer.fmEmail: designer@designer.fmDon't forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts!Outro music: How To Get Your Ass Kicked by Sparks
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The Burn Book (00:29:55)
Burn Victims• FAANG as a validator• FAANG's lack of innovation• Armchair Logo Art Direction• Amateur hour in the design space• MAU/DAU is a broken concept• Uber is the ultimate example of enshittification• An attempt to not look at my phone•"Chimping"• Text messaging needs a reinvent• What's App is terrible• "Founder Mode"• Alegria Art is an abomination Pull Quotes"I've seen incredibly talented people passed on because they don't have a FAANG background.""If tomorrow they found out burning kittens in a barrel would make their stock price go up four points, they would do it so fucking fast.""I think you can make something extremely valuable, that you don't touch a lot.""Uber has made the world worse in every conceivable way""Can you stand still and look around for 10 minutes? I bet you can't.""Founder Mode is just a new term for micromanagement""Teaching is thing the that taught me how to be a better leader."Connect with Joe & BrianWebsite: designer.fmEmail: designer@designer.fmDon't forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to us!Outro music: Rumors by Lizzo (ft. Cardi B)
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Risk (00:43:32)
MentionedMythic Quest episode: Dark Quiet DeathThe pram in the hallTim Van DammeXOXO FestivalCrazy Boat!Topics DiscussedThe delicate balance between following established patterns and advocating for innovative design solutionsHow life circumstances (family obligations, debt, financial security) fundamentally change our relationship with riskThe consulting advantage: why outside perspectives have more freedom to propose radical ideasThe shifting landscape of design opportunities from the mobile revolution to today's uncertain AI frontierWhy designers often self-censor their most authentic work out of fear or practicalityPull Quotes"Every big moment in my career was when I took one of those big swings.""My job is to represent the user...even if it puts me at odds with my team.""Every single good piece of work comes from a genesis of a personal experience.""Risk is a clarification of one's priority list.""I would never do anything to risk my family or my children...nothing would be worth it."Connect with Joe & BrianWebsite: designer.fmEmail: designer@designer.fmDon't forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to us!Outro music: Play At Your Own Risk (12" Version) by Planet Patrol
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The Future of Design with Dave Miller (00:50:33)
In this episode, Brian and Joe welcome back Dave Miller from Design Citizen to discuss the evolving landscape of design as a profession and what the future designer might look like. Dave shares insights from his recent LinkedIn article exploring design from 2025 through 2040, discussing how AI and accessible tools are transforming creative capabilities and what skills tomorrow's designers will need to thrive in an increasingly competitive market.MentionedWhat’s Next for Design? Predictions for 2025 to 2040 - Dave's article on how design will evolve over the next 15 years as AI transforms the field.How are we doing out there? (Designer&Designer Episode 30) - Previous episode with DaveDesign Citizen - Dave's company website where you can learn about his coaching servicesr/pressurewashingporn - Ooooh yeah!Topics DiscussedDave's recent LinkedIn article about the future of design that "blew up"The shift from specialist designers to "Omni designers" who can do a bit of everythingHow AI and accessible tools are breaking down barriers to creativityThe changing economic landscape for designers and the job marketThe value of design education in today's worldThe challenges of cross-disciplinary collaboration between design, engineering, and productHow design can become a key differentiator in a world of samenessThe future of design leadership and who will be in charge of creative visionPull Quotes"Everything's changed. I think everything's gonna change every year apparently." - Dave Miller"I found myself all of a sudden seeing that I was exploring adjacent areas of what I'm technically qualified to do and not doing a bad job at it." - Dave Miller"The hottest thing in the market right now is essentially the player coach. It's the adult in the room that could manage... but they are particularly skilled in the craft." - Dave MillerAbout DaveDave Miller is the founder of Design Citizen, a recruiting and coaching firm dedicated to helping designers thrive. With over 20 years of experience in the creative industry, he draws on the insights and trends he uncovers through conversations with the remarkable people and companies he collaborates with. For more of Dave’s perspectives on the ever-evolving world of design, follow him here on LinkedIn.Connect with Joe & BrianWebsite: designer.fmEmail: designer@designer.fmDon't forget to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to us!Outro music: Pressure Washer vs Techno by @Klangphonics
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The Dunning-Kruger Effect (00:42:07)
The Dunning-Kruger Effecthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effectThe Continuity Girlhttps://womensfilmandtelevisionhistory.wordpress.com/2014/02/21/continuity-girl/Joe's Latest Web Comic, The Custodianhttps://goodwork.is/TheCustodian/Design is Storytelling, by Ellen Luptonhttps://www.cooperhewitt.org/publications/design-is-storytelling/"Everyone thinks they have a sense of humor and good taste, but we can't all have good taste"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW8zvaTRuGoMedieval Guildshttps://www.thoughtco.com/medieval-guilds-4147821Outro SongEt moi et moi et moi - Jacques Dutronc
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What Will Product Design Look Like In A Year? (00:34:40)
"Meta’s Terrible AI Profiles Are Going Viral":https://lifehacker.com/tech/instagram-has-official-ai-accounts-and-they-are-weirdAI2:https://allenai.org/The Singularity Reddit:https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/Charles Baudelaire on Photography:https://www.csus.edu/indiv/o/obriene/art109/readings/11%20baudelaire%20photography.htmKlout:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KloutA Gentleman in Moscow:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Gentleman_in_MoscowSam Altman's Popped Collarshttps://knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/sam-altman-samaOutro SongTime Hard - The Pioneers
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AI-ay-ay (00:40:38)
"Generative AI fuels creative physical product design but is no magic wand"https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/mckinsey-digital/our-insights/generative-ai-fuels-creative-physical-product-design-but-is-no-magic-wand"Graphic design among most at-risk jobs from AI – report""https://www.designweek.co.uk/graphic-design-among-most-at-risk-jobs-from-ai-report/""Dieter - Your Virtual Head of Design"https://chatgpt.com/g/g-LQEv5avuV-dieter-your-virtual-head-of-design
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The New Design Enlightenment (00:50:13)
Ep 40 Show Notes CZ is Going to PrisonR/workreformThe Need for Climate OptimismThe Economy, StupidThe Strauss-Howe Generational TheoryYou’re Can’t Let Mom’s Death Be An Excuse for Getting the Ol Job DoneHow the Internet Makes Money by Making Us Feel BadLibrary of Congress, Cartoon CollectionThe Electric Wire PanicN/N: “AI: First New UI Paradigm in 60 Years”Jakob’s Law Frutiger AeroPainter Bill BraunThat Dickhead VC Dude Song Credit: “Auld Lang Sign” Wheedle's Groove: Seattle's Finest In Funk & Soul 1965-75https://lightintheattic.net/products/wheedles-groove-seattles-finest-in-funk-soul-1965-75
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The Dark Age of UX (00:42:04)
LinkedIn People who talk about this topic:Hang Xuhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/haxuco/Peter Merholzhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/petermerholz/Manuel Limahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/mslima/Erika Hallhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/erikahall/-Indeed UX Job Reporthttps://indeed.design/article/ux-job-listings-plunged-in-2023Joe’s Small Jobs, Small Dreamshttps://uxdesign.cc/small-jobs-small-dreams-7ed46faf46b0Facebook is Chairshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSzoDPptYNARunway AI Motion Genertationhttps://runwayml.com
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Visual Thinking (00:51:11)
Temple Grandin: Society Is Failing Visual Thinkers, and That Hurts Us AllAmerican schools are screening out too many of our visual and spatial thinkers.A Comparative Study of Colour Effects on Cognitive Performance in Real-World and VR EnvironmentsThis research explores the influence of colour on cognitive performance and intellectual abilities (i.e., logical and lateral thinking abilities and people’s attention to detail) in a conventional laboratory setting and an approximately identical ...Visual Thinkers Online TestBuy Temple's book here!
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Layoffs! (00:39:19)
Show NotesWorkism Is Making Americans Miserable https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/religion-workism-making-americans-miserable/583441/Some decent Job Boardshttps://www.ixda.org/jobs/https://www.uxjobsboard.com/https://dribbble.com/https://www.earlystagedesignjobs.com/https://www.krop.com/creative-jobs/ux-ui-designer/https://jobs.smashingmagazine.com/jobs/If you ever want a portfolio review, email us! designer@designer.fmStay strong out there ❤️
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Weirdos (00:38:24)
Mentioned in this episode:Stephen Gates Crazy Ones Podcast
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A View from the C-Suite with Gina Trapani (00:48:04)
Brian and Joe talk to Gina Trapani, CEO of the digital product shop Postlight. Postlight has been unlocking solutions for clients for the past 10 years, and we ask Gina to let us in on the insights of a running a successful design and engineering business. We talk about moving from a Doer to a Leader, the importance of Discovery, and why it’s important to do the work special to you on the weekend.Got something to say to us, good, bad or ugly? You can always email us
at designer@designer.fm
Are The Tools Driving Us? (00:53:21)
Joe and Brian discuss the dispiriting trend of the current tech stack driving how products are built. What does it mean when a product is designed not for the user, customer, or output, but for ease of technical deployment? What will the future hold if that trend continues? Should try and stop it?Got something to say to us, good, bad or ugly? You can always email us
at designer@designer.fm
Quick Hits (00:51:45)
Adobe buys FigmaMissing Kara Swisher contentA simple way to make HTML websitesOrg Design for Design OrgsWhy Designers QuitWhy corporate America broke up with design thinkingThe T-Shaped Designer
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Is IA Eating The World? (00:44:53)
Kelli Goto's Web ReDesign:https://www.powells.com/book/web-redesign-20-workflow-that-works-9780735714335Gen Z Searches For Online Content Differentlyhttps://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/how-gen-z-searches-for-contentEli Parser's Filter Bubbles TED Talk:https://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser_beware_online_filter_bubbles?language=enJames Burke's The K-Webhttp://k-web.org/O'Reilly's Information Architecture (The Polar Bear Book)https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/information-architecture-4th/9781491913529/Ask A Librarian:https://ask.loc.gov/Stuart Brand's How Buildings Learnhttps://www.powells.com/book/-9780140139969/17-4Jessie James Garret's The Elements of UXhttp://www.jjg.net/elements/#:~:text=Jesse%20James%20Garrett%20gives%20readers,create%20a%20successful%20user%20experience.Edward Tufte:https://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_vdqi
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Why Do You Do What You Do? (00:38:03)
Brian and Joe break down whether creative work is calling, or just a job? Can a creative person be just as happy keeping their creative work to their hobbies? Is making money as a creative part of what being a professional creative is? And where do blenders come in to all of this?Got something to say to us, good, bad or ugly? You can always email us
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'How are we doing out there?' with Dave Miller (00:48:28)
Find Dave at designcitizen.comDave's Original Linkedin PostJared Spool Tweet
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Ego & Empathy (00:31:48)
Mentioned in this episode:Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion by Paul BloomStop Whining About Big Government by Kara Swisher featuring Mariana Mazzucato/r/learnart & /r/drawing
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The Craft of Design with Aaron Draplin (00:42:21)
Draplin Design Co.Pretty Much Everything by Aaron James DraplinField NotesPick up Draplin Design Co. merch
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What is the Role of the Designer? (00:34:38)
Mentioned in this episode:Amanda Gorman's inaugural poemEpisode 1: Design ThinkingThe Highly Sensitive PersonEpisode 21: Observation in Design
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